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【剧透帖】《盗梦空间》剧情、线索讨论,打算看而未看的童鞋注意绕行或慎入= =

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发表于 2010-9-13 02:03:41 | 显示全部楼层
"有没有负罪感和分辨回到现实没有是两回事吧…不然其他人还要图腾来干嘛=_="

"没记错这个关系是柯布自己说的吧"

委员长你怎么理解成我说的“关系”是说的图腾……
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-9-13 09:08:22 | 显示全部楼层
第三层是Eames的梦= =||||

话说。。。这本来就是部bug片,我们还在讨论那bug有啥用。。。根本用常理来解释都是解释不通的= =
dinapc 发表于 2010-9-13 00:17

不是啊- -
cobb对fischer说去看他教父(叫啥来着?忘了)的想法
ariadne小声问arthur 说 我们不是要到fischer的梦里去吗?
arthur说 是,我们声称去XXX(教父)那,实际是fischer的

"有没有负罪感和分辨回到现实没有是两回事吧…不然其他人还要图腾来干嘛=_="

"没记错这个关系是柯布自己说的吧"

委员长你怎么理解成我说的“关系”是说的图腾……
帕伽索斯 发表于 2010-9-13 02:03

我理解成你说的“关系”是“图腾法则”咯. . .

要不你说的“关系”是指什么?
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发表于 2010-9-13 09:15:39 | 显示全部楼层
教父么= =不是舅舅么…
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-9-13 09:20:27 | 显示全部楼层
教父么= =不是舅舅么…
旅法师-羊之师 发表于 2010-9-13 09:15

你那什么神翻译-_______,-|||||
godfather啊
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发表于 2010-9-13 09:27:37 | 显示全部楼层
你那什么神翻译-_______,-|||||
godfather啊
jillちゃん 发表于 2010-9-13 09:20

我倒是没有留意他是怎么叫的==可能我又眼残吧…
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-9-13 09:35:44 | 显示全部楼层
鉴于是iMax而且坐得太前所以我大部分时间都是在听. . . 233
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发表于 2010-9-13 10:08:05 | 显示全部楼层
男猪脚没回来还在梦里,第一他醒来之后所有人都有看他(剧情有提到过潜意识造的人会一直关注进入梦中的自己),如果是真实世界的话,各位战友会有话说,第二他的2个孩子应该已经长大一些,但他看到的还是离开时候的身形,第三 陀螺在他转过去看孩子的时候变平稳了,怎么可能一个陀螺之前不平稳后来便平稳的不停地转呢。
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发表于 2010-9-13 12:58:17 | 显示全部楼层
BUG什么的就不说了
关于最后的结局
** WARNING: This is long, and every word of it contains spoilers. Beware **
  
  **注意:这很长,文章每个字都是剧透。慎入**
  
  It is NOT a dream: The WEDDING RING gives it away.
  
  这不是个梦:婚戒泄露了真相
  
  I have now seen this movie three times. The first time I saw it I thought it was not a dream and he was home. When I saw discussions to the contrary, I saw it again looking for any clues to tell whether he is dreaming the whole time, and questioned the ending thoroughly. It was not until I saw a post about someone saying he is only wearing a wedding ring when he dreams. Multiple people shot it down saying that they saw him wearing it in reality or that he was not wearing it in this dream or that one. My third viewing had me looking for the ring in almost every shot, seeing if his totem ever falls in a dream (Something someone said happened), looking at his children's faces to see if they are the same, etc.
  
  我已经看了三遍这电影。第一次我看时,我想这不是个梦,他是回家了。当我看到相反的争论时,我再看了一遍,来寻找任何能告知自始至终他是否在做梦的线索,并完全怀疑这个结局。直到我看到一个帖子说他只在他做梦的时候戴着结婚戒指。许多人反驳说他们看到他在现实中戴着它,或者他不是在这个或者那个梦中戴着戒指。我第三次观影就在任何一个场景中寻找这个戒指,观察他的图腾是否在梦中停下来过(有人说发生过的),观察他的孩子们的脸来判断他们是否还是一样的,等等。
  
  My analysis as follows:
  
  我的分析如下:
  
  The Wedding Ring:
  
  结婚戒指
  
  We start the movie with Cobb in limbo with Saito, he is wearing a ring. Step back to the beginning, he is trying to convince Saito to let him into his mind to help protect it, this takes place in a dream two layers down. He is wearing a wedding ring. Things go south and we wake up in the apartment, where we think an angry mob is really coming down the street. They threaten Saito's life with him thinking it is reality, only for him to discover otherwise. In this entire scene Cobb is wearing a wedding ring. Wake up on the train, NO WEDDING RING. In the hotel suite on the phone with his kids, NO WEDDING RING. On the roof talking to Saito, NO WEDDING RING. France, the architecture university, NO WEDDING RING. The coffee shop in Ariadne's first shared dream, Cobb is wearing his wedding ring, she freaks out. They wake up in the workshop, NO WEDDING RING. They go back under and Ariadne explores the physics of the dreamworld, again Cobb is wearing a wedding ring.
  
  电影随着 Cobb(Leo演的)和Saito(斋藤)在梦境中开始,他戴着一个戒指。倒退回最开始时,他正努力说服Saito让他进入他的意识去保护他,这发生在 2层深的梦中。他戴着一个婚戒。事情黄了然后我们在公寓中醒来,现实中有一群暴民正沿着街道行进。他们威胁Saito相信这是现实。在这个全部场景中,Cobb戴着一个婚戒。在列车中醒来,没有婚戒。在饭店房间打电话给孩子时,没有婚戒。在屋顶和Saito说话时,没有婚戒。法国,建筑大学,没有婚戒。在Ariadne的第一个被分享的梦中的咖啡店里,Cobb戴着他的婚戒,她吓坏了。他们在工作间里醒来,没有婚戒。他们回到梦中,Ariadne发现梦中世界的物理学时,Cobb再次戴着他的戒指。
  
  Cobb goes to see Eames, the entire time not wearing a ring. He meets the new chemist, still no ring. The chemist gives him a quick taste of his latest potion, in that scene we get a quick glimpse of his hand with a WEDDING RING. Wakes up, no ring. See the pattern?
  
  Cobb去看Eames,这整段时间都没戴婚戒。他见了新Yao剂师,还是没戒指。Yao剂师给了他一剂最新Yao让他快速尝试,在那个场景中我们看到他戴着婚戒的手快速的一闪。醒了过来,没有戒指。看到了吗?
  
  So finally, the inception. We are on the plane, we clearly see is not wearing a ring. Level 1, WEDDING RING, Level 2, WEDDING RING, Level 3 WEDDING RING, Limbo he is wearing his WEDDING RING.
  
  所以最后,《盗梦空间》。我们在飞机上,我们清楚看到没有戴戒指。第一层,戴着,第二层,戴着,第三层,戴着,梦境中他一直戴着婚戒。
  
  After he meets Saito as an old man, the conversation continues past what we saw in the beginning, yet even here he is wearing a WEDDING RING still. Then, when Saito reaches for the gun, we are on an airplane. He is not wearing a wedding ring here.
  
  在他看到已是老头样的Saito之后,会谈继续经过我们在一开始看到的,在那时他仍然一直戴着婚戒。然后,当Saito去够木仓,我们就在飞机上了。在那里,他一直没有带婚戒。
  
  HERE IS THE KEY. As he is walking through the terminal, no ring, as he is greeted by father in law, no ring, when he gets home and spins his totem, no ring.
  
  这里就是关键。当他穿过过航站楼,没有戒指,当他的岳父欢迎他时,没有戒指,当他到家和旋转他的图腾时,没有戒指。
  
  In his dreams he is married to Mal still, as she can still exist there. In reality, he knows she is dead and does not wear a wedding ring as he is no longer married. A simple yet easily unnoticed way to test which parts are reality.
  
  在他的梦中他仍然和Mal结婚,她可以仍旧存活在梦中。在现实里,他知道她已经死了,没有戴婚戒表示他已经不再结婚。一个简单而容易忽视的方式去推测哪段是真实的。
  
  Not done there, I investigated another thing, Cobb's totem:
  
  在那之前,我研究了另外一个东西,Cobb的图腾:
  
  I have seen many posts of people saying his totem falls when he is in others' dreams. This is simply not true. People say it wobbles and falls over in the beginning. I watched and listened closely, Saito spins the top and we hear it spinning as the scene cuts to the young Saito. Then, in the end when we see him old again, he looks down and it is still spinning, he knows he is not in reality and goes for the gun.
  
  我已经看过很多人的帖子,说他的图腾在别人的梦中倒下了。这是完全不正确的。人们说它在一开始的时候摆动、翻倒。我看了和仔细听了,Saito转动顶部,当画面转入Saito年轻的时候我们听到它旋转着。然后,在结束时我们再一次看到他老的样子,他往下看,它还是在不听地转,他知道他不在现实中就拿起了木仓。
  
  When Cobb uses inception on Mal, it continues and never stops. In the hotel after the failed Saito mission, it falls. A funny thing to note is that every scene in which the top spins endlessly he is wearing a WEDDING RING. In the scenes in which it topples, he is not.
  
  当Cobb在Mal身上用了inception时,它在继续着没有停。在酒店那Saito失败的任务后,它停下来了。一个有趣的发现:每个陀螺无休止旋转的场景里他总是戴着婚戒。在它倒下的场景里,他就没戴。
  
  Now, the awakening scene. Looks an awful lot like a dream right? Not really. He wakes up on the plane surprised, but everyone is smiling. They woke up from the sedatives, but Cobb and Saito were down in limbo. When they got back, everyone is happy to see he made it, Saito looks just as stunned only backing up the fact that he really snapped back to reality. They are all getting bags, going through customs, etc. Everyone looks at each other with a grin because they know inception worked and that Cobb is finally home. Not very dream-like except that it seems like a dream come true. Had the scene after he and Saito with the gun been him in his home, him on his way to his home, etc, I would think it is a dream. No, he awakens in EXACTLY the place he went to sleep to start inception. You never really know how you get to where you are in a dream, do you? Then how does he know he is on a plane and just successfully completed inception on Robert Fischer, the man in front of him?
  
  现在说说那个唤醒的场景。看到那帮傻货很像一场梦是吧?不见得。他在飞机上意外地醒来,但是每个人都在微笑。他们从镇静剂中醒来,但是Cobb和Saito还深处梦境。当他们回来时,所有人都很开心看到他做到了,Saito看起来震惊地接受这个突然回到现实的事实。他们一起拿箱子,过了海关,等等。每个人看对方露齿而笑因为他们知道inception成功了,Cobb最终回家了。若不是如梦一般,这真似梦成真。在他和 Saito够木仓之后在他家的场景以及他回家的路上等等的场景,我想它是一个梦。不,他醒来时的确回到了那个他睡去去展开inception的地方。你永远不知道你怎么去你梦中世界的,对吧?然后他怎么知道他在一架飞机上,而且成功地在那个坐在他前面的Robert Fischer身上完成了inception?
  
  Finally, the home scene. Looks like a dream? In this case, yes it does. we see the children exactly where they were, doing the same thing, wearing the same clothes. They appear the same age. On my second viewing this was red flag that it was a dream. But on my third viewing I noticed slight differences, such as the kids looking slightly older. The cast list has two sets of kids listed, ones slightly older than the others. They are not voice casts but actual actors in the film. I especially noticed a difference as the camera pans towards the totem, I chose to focus on the back door with the kids. The girl is seen throwing herself on her father, in this scene she looks clearly older than the memory he has of her.
  
  最后讲讲家里的场景。看起来像个梦?这种情况说来,的确是的。我们看到孩子们还在做同样的事,穿着同样的衣服。他们还是相同的年龄。在我的第二次观影时发现这是个惹人生气的信号:这是个梦。但在我第三次观影时,我注意到细微的不同点,例如孩子们看起来长大了些。演员表列着两个孩子,一个稍微比另一个大些。他们不是配音演员而是电影里的实际演员。我特别注意到一个不同点,就在画面摇摄那个图腾的时候。我聚焦在有孩子们的后门上。那个女孩看起来是跳到她父亲的身上,在这个场景中她看起来明显比他记忆中的孩子更大些。
  
  And of course, the totem itself. I watched each spin my third time through. It spun flawlessly for a while, began to wobble slightly, then started a hard wobble then fall. In the final scene it appears to be spinning smoothly for a long time, he probably gave it a lot of power. It starts to slightly wobble, and the screen goes black after it begins a HARD WOBBLE as if it is about to topple, not correct itself.
  
  当然了,还有图腾本身,我第三次看时每次旋转都看完了。它会一段时间完美无瑕地旋转起来,会轻微颠簸下,然后大幅度摇晃最后停下。在最后场景中,它平滑地旋转了很长一段时间,他可能给它很大一股劲儿。它开始轻微摇晃,就在它开始大幅度摇晃像要倒下而不是校准自身时,屏幕就变黑了。
  
  Conclusion: The movie isn't a dream, Cobb isn't caught in some "limbo that looks a lot like reality." Cobb spends the entire movie trying to get to his kids in reality, why would he settle for shades in a limbo? What proof is there that he is dreaming the whole time? If he is dreaming at the end, where is he dreaming? Limbo? So he goes from talking to Saito to just waking up on a plane, all as a part of a dream in limbo? Really? Think about it.
  
  结论:这个电影不是一场梦,Cobb没有困在什么“梦境看起来很像现实。”Cobb花了一整部电影的时间努力去在现实中回到孩子身边,为什么让他满足于梦境中的影子?有什么证明说他自始至终一直在做梦?如果他梦到了结局,他又在哪里做梦?梦境中?所以他从和Saito对话就仅仅是为了上一架飞机,作为全部梦境中的一段?真的么?想想吧。
  
  Nolan would never take the "eeet was aaaaalll a dreeeeaaaammmmm" cliche way out. But the fact that he cut the film before the top falls over does have a meaning. He is planting a seed of doubt in your mind. He uses inception on the audience to have them question the ending. The concept of the movie thus becomes reality to the viewer, a heavy thing to think about and something that hasn't been done before.
  
  Nolan(电影导演)不会拿出“这~是~一~个~梦~”这样的陈词滥调。但事实是他剪掉了在陀螺倒下的片段说明有一个含义。他是在你脑中种下了一个怀疑的种子。他在观众身上用了inception的方式以使观众探究这个结局。因此这部电影的思想对观影者来说成为了现实,更深刻地去思考那些从前从不会做过的事。
  
  But all the evidence points to reality.
  
  但所有的证据指向了现实。 最后感谢分析人!鼓掌!!!

我很赞成- -
所以我觉得是回到现实了
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发表于 2010-9-13 16:30:27 | 显示全部楼层
最后終于正常了
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-9-13 19:35:00 | 显示全部楼层
看戒指是个好方法,如果确实如此的话
不过最后的定论除此以外都是很主观没什么说服力的,虽然我也看到cast list里面2个孩子都有2个年龄的演员去饰演,但是2年时间那个年龄段的孩子是大得很快的,然而实际看上去感觉却差别不大
我打算有DVD版下载后再找找有没有哪个忽略了的画面是孩子们大一点时的状态——不一定在最后cobb回家那时

不过,我们不妨带着所有的疑问去期待inception 2
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发表于 2010-9-13 19:57:08 | 显示全部楼层
其实我真没注意那孩子不是同一个人…看起来真的没差…(我这破地方看不到最后的字幕啊混蛋)
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发表于 2010-9-14 11:00:09 | 显示全部楼层
用了启发性结尾导致一切符合逻辑的不管是合理还是不合理的推测皆是可行的。
如果说开始的世界就是梦呢?那就没完没了了,由他去吧,小莱最近几年对意识精神方面的片子特别有爱
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发表于 2010-9-14 11:07:07 | 显示全部楼层
现实五分钟=梦境(一层)60分钟,也就是1:12,二层以后就几何基数递增了,最后一层车落水前9秒,二层,三层,四层都用足了时间,最完美的就是同时穿越
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发表于 2010-9-14 12:33:51 | 显示全部楼层
看戒指是个好方法,如果确实如此的话
不过最后的定论除此以外都是很主观没什么说服力的,虽然我也看到cast list里面2个孩子都有2个年龄的演员去饰演,但是2年时间那个年龄段的孩子是大得很快的,然而实际看上去感觉 ...
jillちゃん 发表于 2010-9-13 19:35
我想可能會帶來更多謎團吧囧
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发表于 2010-9-14 12:38:13 | 显示全部楼层
现实五分钟=梦境(一层)60分钟,也就是1:12,二层以后就几何基数递增了,最后一层车落水前9秒,二层,三层,四层都用足了时间,最完美的就是同时穿越
呆鸟 发表于 2010-9-14 11:07
按照這樣算,每一層的時間應該是上一層的12倍才對,但是在第四層去第五層找齋藤的時候,第三層渡過的時間也就幾分鐘,換到第五層,時間也應該是5分鐘(大概)*12*12而已,齋藤都等了幾十年了
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-9-14 15:57:06 | 显示全部楼层
按照這樣算,每一層的時間應該是上一層的12倍才對,但是在第四層去第五層找齋藤的時候,第三層渡過的時間也就幾分鐘,換到第五層,時間也應該是5分鐘(大概)*12*12而已,齋藤都等了幾十年了
旅法师-羊之师 发表于 2010-9-14 12:38

你俩搞错了-_______,-|||||

是20倍
你们可以自己算一下,10小时航班(入睡时间少于10小时)大概度过的时间就接近于ariadne所说的第一层1周,第二层半年,第三层10年,那么到第四层(实际上已经是limbo了,但我似乎也听到cobb说再进入下一层找齋藤?还是等我迟些再看一遍吧-_____,-||||)就是可以超过200年

很多人错误地去计算时间——用车掉落时齋藤死到车落入水里的时间,大约是坠落的5、6秒中的最后1秒左右死的——但其实正确的计算方法是入水后大家都游上水面好一阵子了他们还没回到第一层,所以这里面经过了多少时间是无法确定的,可能是第一层中的2分钟后,也就是(第四层)limbo中的11天后(从影片中经过的时间来看);最多也可能是航班剩余的时间——现实中8小时左右(第一层中6天左右),也就是(第四层)limbo中的146年。而且在limbo中是不会受kick影响的,要脱离需要在limbo中死去,所以如果有第五层的话,cobb在第四层找了2年多才得以进入第五层(第三层约1个半月;第二层约2天;第一层约2个半小时;现实约7分半钟),齋藤为什么比cobb老那么多(我个人觉得是50年左右的差距)就很好解释了
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发表于 2010-9-14 16:02:43 | 显示全部楼层
oh sheep。。。我忘記了他們不是一起上來的
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发表于 2010-9-14 16:16:11 | 显示全部楼层
你俩搞错了-_______,-|||||

是20倍
你们可以自己算一下,10小时航班(入睡时间少于10小时)大概度过的时间就接近于ariadne所说的第一层1周,第二层半年,第三层10年,那么到第四层(实际上已经是limbo了,但我 ...
jillちゃん 发表于 2010-9-14 15:57

在故事中只有第一层梦境的直接说明,之后的都是以文字描述的,而且不安定,所以我除了第一层之外用了几何级数递增概括了


还有一个提示,孩子的脸,只有结尾那一刻才能看见脸,才能看清,可以理解为噩梦已经过去了
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发表于 2010-9-14 16:28:41 | 显示全部楼层
居然这么入戏...= =
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发表于 2010-9-14 16:29:05 | 显示全部楼层
居然这么入戏...= =
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